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Post by hudson on Jun 2, 2023 18:17:10 GMT -5
Zebulon
Just a word of cation about the trans. oil level screw. I had thought that level screw would be an acurate indication of the oil level also when my RE was lossing sump oil and thought that it was going into the trans. That level screw will indicate oil is present in the trans. but if bled off to that screw level with the bike on the center stand the trans. will be at about half of the recomended oil volume. Riding the bike with the oil at the oil level screw will cause trans. and primary chain damage. ( You can guess how I know ). I think most sump oil consumtion can be traced to the gas blow by check ball system. How it works is describe in detail in the service manual. There was a check ball spring change some where in production that helped with oil consuption. I can supply more detail if anyboby wants to know.
Brian
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Post by zebulon on Jun 9, 2023 11:34:41 GMT -5
Thank you Tim for your offer, I ordered a clutch cover gasket out of the 🇬🇧, and found a oil pump seal on eBay. It looks like I have to pull the cover again, and change the oil seal of the oil pump, the only seal I took over from the old clutch cover My findings so far: she uses a lot of oil…., no oil in water. After my 80 miles trip where I „lost“ 2 liters of oil, I had around 1,7 to 1,8 liter coming out of the transmission sump, not to bad compared to 1,6 liter in the manual. Did another test drive and she used 1,2 liter engine oil doing 50 miles (!!!), transmission oil came out to around 1,8 to 1,9 liter. Ok it looks like she ads a little bit to the transmission sump, but where‘s the rest going??? I don’t see blue smoke while riding or it’s diluted by air that I can’t see it in the mirror.
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Post by timpa136 on Jun 9, 2023 13:24:26 GMT -5
Thank you Tim for your offer, I ordered a clutch cover gasket out of the 🇬🇧, and found a oil pump seal on eBay. It looks like I have to pull the cover again, and change the oil seal of the oil pump, the only seal I took over from the old clutch cover My findings so far: she uses a lot of oil…., no oil in water. After my 80 miles trip where I „lost“ 2 liters of oil, I had around 1,7 to 1,8 liter coming out of the transmission sump, not to bad compared to 1,6 liter in the manual. Did another test drive and she used 1,2 liter engine oil doing 50 miles (!!!), transmission oil came out to around 1,8 to 1,9 liter. Ok it looks like she ads a little bit to the transmission sump, but where‘s the rest going??? I don’t see blue smoke while riding or it’s diluted by air that I can’t see it in the mirror. The oil seal goes in seemingly backwards but imagining the oil pressure needs to face the lip seal. Take a picture of old seal and the spacer and post if any question. Good luck and stay at it. Tim
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Post by zebulon on Jun 13, 2023 7:18:36 GMT -5
I know I should pull the cover to ensure it's not upside down, BUT have a look at the pictures I took from the trans sump. Right pic shows content after my 8o mile trip where I lost almost 2 liter, filled this in again and did 50 miles lost 1,2 liter engine oil. Left pic shows what came out afterwards
Can someone bring light into this for me? Where's the oil going?
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Post by zebulon on Jul 15, 2023 6:53:41 GMT -5
Hi guys I need some input, still no idea what causes the high oil consumption. Only a very small amout ist going into the transmission, but almost a liter is burned.
I check what hudson recommended, the ball, spring, breather hose all good. Mesasured oil preassure: cold at idle 4bar, increasing to 5bar if you open the throttle. service manual says not lower than 0.5bar, so is 4bar too much?
Disassembleed the oil preasure regulator and found everything within specs.
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Post by timpa136 on Jul 15, 2023 11:16:37 GMT -5
Hi guys I need some input, still no idea what causes the high oil consumption. Only a very small amout ist going into the transmission, but almost a liter is burned. I check what hudson recommended, the ball, spring, breather hose all good. Mesasured oil preassure: cold at idle 4bar, increasing to 5bar if you open the throttle. service manual says not lower than 0.5bar, so is 4bar too much? Disassembleed the oil preasure regulator and found everything within specs.
Oil pressure seems to be very close in the ball park. Later production pressure regulators had revised clearances but pressures should be very close. .Mesasured oil preassure: cold at idle 4bar, increasing to 5bar if you open the throttle.A pre production school bike was 1,500 RPM 2.47 KG 2,000RPM 3.98 KG 3,000RPM 5.07KG up to 5,000RPM 5.93KG How fast can you go thru a liter of recommended oil? tim
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Post by zebulon on Jul 15, 2023 14:43:49 GMT -5
36km and about 20 minutes of idling and twisting the throttle to test a new regulator/rectifier.
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Post by wayne on Jul 15, 2023 18:49:31 GMT -5
Surely you'd have to be blowing clouds of smoke at that rate? (if only a fraction is going into the gearbox).
Is it smoking as if it's burning large amounts of oil?
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Post by zebulon on Jul 16, 2023 7:28:57 GMT -5
Yes, it’s not like a two stroked while driving at least I can’t tell through the mirror , but when driving of, and when ideling in the garage it’s smog alarm.
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Post by Framitron on Jul 16, 2023 12:37:50 GMT -5
Yeah, this "Houdini" engine oil is a real puzzle for me as well. 1L/36km = 27mL/km. This is not a huge amount of fluid per km which may explain the difficulty to observe its escape path(s). (The volume of a shot glass of hard alcohol can vary from 25 to 44mL depending on local standards around the world.)
Lets think about all of the possible options for the oil loss and their likely causes and observable symptoms):
-Combustion. Directly caused by leak into the combustion chamber. Indirectly from worn O-rings or overpressure by clogged return path maybe? Symptoms would likely be lots of blue smoke and probably plug fouling. [Which doesnt seem to be the case according to Zebulon] and the oil pressure measurements don't indicate anything out of the ordinary. Unless the oil pressure measurement does not observe the entire flow path in the engine. The metering pump provides 5cc/6minutes according to the manual if the lever is fully open. (and some of that goes to your chain if you have that lubrication provision enabled). During normal riding at 60kM/hr the pump would only circulate less than 1mL per 1kM. So an extra 27mL into the combustion chamber would probably make the engine run terribly.
-External bleeding. Directly squirting out of engine from a crack, bad gasket, leaking hose, loose fitting banjo bolts. The symptom would be fairly visible when stationary but if there was a case where it doesn't start to leak until high rpm's its possible that a thin jet of oil could escape while riding and not be noticeable. Although the rider may smell raw oil and the rear portions of bike would probably capture some spray buildup so I would recommend a very careful check of the bike just to help eliminate this as a cause.
-Internal bleeding. There are a few destinations internally for the oil to go. So far we have discussed: coolant and transmission. Zebulon stated that no oil is in the coolant. Just curious, I have seen oil turn into a white emulsion with the addition of a small amount of water but I have not personally experienced coolant with some oil addition. Does anyone know how much oil must be introduced into coolant before it becomes noticeable? And with transmission: Zebulon has observed something from 100-200mL increase of oil after riding.
The transmission increase does not account for all but makes me think of another possibility that I have observed from other complex fluid system mysteries. *Multiple small problems occurring simultaneously* For instance, Zebulons bike may have slightly worn o-rings in the engine housing allowing slightly more oil to enter the combustion chamber than originally specified, *Plus* the known small amount of oil bleeding into the transmission, *Plus* one or more of the other bleed paths. Each one being small enough to be difficult to notice individually but all together totaling an appreciable quantity.
Thoughts?
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Post by wayne on Jul 16, 2023 19:22:25 GMT -5
With you on the multiple small problems FRAMITRON. I'm working on one (different field) right now that's boiled down to multiple minor problems and it's been maddening.
By the sound of it, a lot of this oil is being burned. ZEBULON says smog alarm in the garage and when driving off.
Sounds like the first thing to deal with is the 1 to 200 ml being transferred to the gearbox. Sort that first and reassess.
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Post by zebulon on Oct 10, 2023 8:37:28 GMT -5
Hi guys,
no happy ending at the moment. Maybe you have some more ideas about the mystery of my oil loosing RE5. Michel and I are running out of options. The engine has been taken apart by Michel for the second time and is probably as good as new. The RE5 still loosing/burning/leaking (what ever) oil and I/we don't know where it's going. A 24 mile trip used 1 liter of engine oil, 200ml went to the transmission, the rest is "missing", no 2 stroke smoke plume that one would imagine for that kind of short trip and no charred spark plug. The 200ml could be due to the pump drive oil seal being replaced with a NOS one! I will go back to the previous one that worked better. Input please.
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Post by timpa136 on Oct 10, 2023 10:01:28 GMT -5
Hi guys,
no happy ending at the moment. Maybe you have some more ideas about the mystery of my oil loosing RE5. Michel and I are running out of options. The engine has been taken apart by Michel for the second time and is probably as good as new. The RE5 still loosing/burning/leaking (what ever) oil and I/we don't know where it's going. A 24 mile trip used 1 liter of engine oil, 200ml went to the transmission, the rest is "missing", no 2 stroke smoke plume that one would imagine for that kind of short trip and no charred spark plug. The 200ml could be due to the pump drive oil seal being replaced with a NOS one! I will go back to the previous one that worked better. Input please.
I feel your frustration. Is there any indication of oil leaking from the transmission vent behind the starter? Some oils just don't smoke as the oil gets oxidized from the heat of combustion. Tim
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Post by Framitron on Oct 10, 2023 10:55:12 GMT -5
Hello Zebulon: Not sure if this has been mentioned before but you can add a dye to the metering oil that is visible with UV light. That way you can check the engine and transmission oil (and coolant) after a run and see if/how much the dye has bled into other fluid systems.
Do you have access to a dynamometer service? It will cost you some money for an hour on the dynamometer. In the USA it is a few hundred $ per hour but you can run your RE5 on that platform under load for some period of time and observe if any oil is leaking out. Also they will have a Lambda sensor to measure your exhaust combustion products. Perhaps that will provide information about combusted oil in the exhaust. (A side benefit is that you will get the power curve for your engine and maybe you can fine tune your carburetor between runs)
Al
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Post by zebulon on Apr 9, 2024 9:43:05 GMT -5
Guys I am back from RE5 hybernation with no news, done nothing since last October.
Clutching at straws - Timpa136 had some numbers on oil preassure from a prototype, are there any recent values available?
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