Fixing biggest rotary problems

[rotoryguy]

Hi All,

This video came up in my Youtube and I found it extremely interesting.

Have a look and throw out your thoughts for discussion if you like.

I think he's got some interesting points there regarding why the Mazda's engine has cracks (torque) and regarding oil injection.

Actually I even wandered about using premix in my engine and 2-cycle oil in the oil tank (since it's designed to burn).

I've never had any experience with E85 either - have you?  Seems like if the rest of the fuel system isn't ready for E85, you'd be in big trouble.

But then, I'm not planning to race my RE5 anyway!

[jimbore5]

This opens up the debate about engine oil vs 2 stroke oils for apex seal lubrication ?

[wayne]

Pretty interesting. A lot of stuff not relevant for us but some good points. Many of the components are quite different (for example, our corner seals don't have rubber, Apex seals are a very different design). We don't have E85 here in Australia to my knowledge but like you, I won't be racing.

I'm about to try, for the first time, a 2 stroke oil in my metering pump tank. After a long chat with a Castrol tech, I'm going to give it whirl. They recommended an Ester fully synthetic and he quoted me the ash content which I've promptly forgotten, but it's very low. Claims on the bottle are "practically ashless". Why not. I'm not going to live forever.

Thanks for the video.

[timpa136]

I'm about to try, for the first time, a 2 stroke oil in my metering pump tank

Ahh, What? Wait please. Just my $.02 but OK........... why again is that recommended?   Tim

[hudson]

My 2 cents.   Everything in this video is complete B.S. Stay away from this " expert"

Brian

[wayne]

Tim, this is after a long conversation with a Castrol Tech. I called him about the use of Castrol R in a rotary engine. No intention of running it but someone new on the scene was both using it and waxing lyrical. I like to fact check....."extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

He was appalled at the use of "R" in a rotary, gave reasons and commented it would be a last resort. We talked long about ash content, GTX etc etc and I knew I was talking to a bloke who was knowledgeable, appreciated rotary engines and was interested in the discussion and helpful (obviously bored with the usual Castrol Technical questions. This is the same department within Castrol that told me about GTX and wet clutches over 17 years ago and now they publish that information).

He didn't push the use of 2 stroke but, all things considered, believed it met certain parameters. Primarily, in the Ester fully synthetic variant, very low ash content (I'll see if I can find it precisely, I took copious notes because I can't remember anything these days including where I left the notes) and secondarily, it was formulated to burn during the combustion process unlike a sump oil. Something the guy on the video mentioned as well and has, to me at least, a fundamental truth about it.

It's not something I would recommend to others when GTX is such a proven, cheap and readily available product. But felt that I should try it. I have a spare engine as well as enough to rebuild one so, what the heck!

[timpa136]

Wayne,
I took copious notes because I can't remember anything these days including where I left the notes) and secondarily, it was formulated to burn during the combustion process unlike a sump oil.

Oh how i can relate to that and more worrisome, i didn't even take any notes.

You said something encouraging there, i recall I believe  referring to Ams-oil that it didn't burn and worked great in a race engine but daily commuting in traffic not so much. So i think the burning in the process is desirable but i don't know any better.

Interestingly this involves a bit of work but it would be interesting to remove the exhaust manifold and borescope out for any deposits on your rotor before switching.

Tim

[wayne]

I agree Tim re investigation before switching. I've been thinking of some way to quantify the results other than just the plug or exhaust ends (my ends are pretty clean so not much to be gained there but my plugs are pretty filthy).

One other point that member WIZNORTON mentioned is that the 2 stroke oils are also designed to become aerosols prior to induction. Perhaps a small point but that combined with "designed to burn". He also mentions a possible, albeit tiny, effect on mixture which may need accounting for. I'm willing to have a go.

[re5rotary]

OMG Wayne a true rotary pioneer after all :-) what about Rotella DD40 that is recommended for the Nortons?

[wayne]

Thanks Terry, will see if that's available over here and what Shell says about it.

[re5rotary]

I managed to get a 20l drum of it from some truck place here. The amount of miles ive done on the Commander to date means that should see me out!

[rotoryguy]

Hi All,
I'm glad to hear from you all.
I am certainly no rotary expert and it's good to hear thoughts from many of you that have tons more experience with rotary than I.
Unfortunately many of us don't have rotary's laying around to experiment on like the guy in the vid.
But here's the thing; and I'll steal from Randaak's blog when talking about carbs and the fact that ignition, carb settings, compression, etc affects the final outcome. (Here's the link if you want to read it www.randakksblog.com/everything-effects-everything/)
Even metallurgy is involved since we're talking about engines. What's good for one engine may not be good for another eh?
Heat, expansion differences and many factors come into play.

Substituting 2-cy oil in the injector tank might work, but how much per rotation of the rotor?
Will the injector system need recalibration? Don't forget that there are marine 2-cy and air-cooled 2-cy oils
The fact 2-cy oil is designed to burn is great, but how much is the right amount? And how much oil in the premix? Do you need pre-mix?
I've had a million 2-cy engines in model aircraft to weedeaters and 2-cy mix ranges from 20:1 all the way to 100:1.
The point being that each manufacturer has their own metallurgy and preferences and use cases - none of which I am privy to.

I've run non-ethanol, ethanol, nitro, methanol, and even av-gas (100LL) in 2-cy engines and one thing I can say is they all work, but some combinations will kill an engine (shorten the life) based upon rpm, load, heat and use cases.

And where are those Suzuki engineers when we need them eh?

[kanonkopdrinker]

To add my penn'orth ..... Yep, Shell DD+40 in the metering tank .... been using it for years.

David

[rotoryguy]

Hi David-

How did you get started with the DD40?

Curious as to why you would've made the switch.

Sorry forgot to add these documents I found.
I was curious as to what was in it.

9521HD_InstructionSheet.pdf (956.17 KB)

GSAP_msds_01184138.PDF (135.79 KB)

[wayne]

Aug 24, 2021 13:25:59 GMT -5 kanonkopdrinker said:

To add my penn'orth ..... Yep, Shell DD+40 in the metering tank .... been using it for years.

David

Thank you David, I was going to contact you directly with the question.

Are different oils recommended for the Air cooled vs water cooled Norton or do they run with different ratios?