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Post by kanonkopdrinker on Aug 25, 2021 14:51:44 GMT -5
Same oil recommended in all Norton rotary metering tanks …… air-cooled and water-cooled.
A monograde 40 (Shell Rotella being the most popular) ….. or Silkolene 2T synthetic two-stroke oil ….. Interpol 2, Classic, Commander and F1
The Silkolene is preferred for bikes which see only occasional use as it seems to coat the engine internals to prevent corrosion.
Use your bike regularly, then the ‘40’ is fine, as well as being a fraction of the price!!
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Post by typ110 on Aug 26, 2021 4:10:00 GMT -5
A few rotary-experts I know even advice against using 2-stroke oil because it burns rather quickly due to the higher temperatures inside the rotary engine. The result is not enough internal lubrification!
My advise: stick with the "normal" oils ;-)
Cheers,
Michel
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Post by wayne on Aug 29, 2021 18:33:29 GMT -5
Michel and anyone else, while on the face of it, the higher temps of a rotary may not suit an oil designed for 2 strokes, why would an oil designed to live only in the sump (GTX) cope any better?
Always been an advocate of GTX but just trying to expand my knowledge.
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Post by rotoryguy on Aug 31, 2021 6:44:09 GMT -5
Hi Wayne,
Before I go any further, let me just say that sometimes the old adage: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" does sometimes have a place in our hearts.
Years ago I was involved with model helicopters and did a lot of reading, writing, and experimentation with oils. The helicopters used 25cc 2-cy gasoline engines. These were aluminum engine cylinders & pistons and the cylinders were not nikasil or anything fancy. When they got hot, they melted. Pistons seized, rings became brittle and broke and conrods turned blue! "Hot" might have been from excessive rpm, ambient temps, lack of lubrication, etc.
Oil/gasoline ratios were discussed, gasoline types, oil brands (always a political discussion), weights, and types (air v water cooled) were discussed. A vendor for Blue Marble contacted me and sent me a gallon of the stuff to try. I found it to be one of the best oils I tried for both cooling and lubrication. Heretofore, I'd never even heard of it. But then I lived in TX and NC and we don't need snowmobiles! If you do a search on snowmobile oils, you'll get dozens of types and brands. And those results are just for that genre.
So oils and additives are always being developed against metallurgy, use cases, and longevity. There's trade-offs all along the way. If you are racing to win, you might not care if the engine lasts 100K miles - you just need HP - NOW.
My guess is that when the RE5 was developed, the Suzuki guys sat around arguing about oil for the sump and oil for the combustion chamber until they settled on the best available lubrication at that time for the metallurgy, availability, performance, lifespan and use cases and the tradeoffs were made for the oil, oil injection ratios and so on. Kanonkopdrinker and Typ110 have a couple of oil use cases that I thought were pretty important to know. (I had to look up Kanonkop!)
Putting modern oil in an engine that's a vintage 1976 without some research may not always be a good idea.
Maybe it's a bit like using energy conserving oil for cars in motorcycles with wet clutches. That's a no-no, since the friction modifiers in that oil may cause the clutch to slip. It doesn't mean the oil or the clutches are a bad design - the use case just doesn't support the combination.
So having only 1 RE5 and not willing to risk burning it up, that old adage makes some sense to me. It would be nice if we had data on different modern oils for the RE5 - ones that burned cleaner, lubricated and cooled better - but I'm not aware of any.
Has anyone in RE5-land been involved in research? What data is available for us to chew on?
Here are some articles I found. Not all rotary engines are the same and yes, marketing exists:
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Post by wayne on Aug 31, 2021 19:17:08 GMT -5
Thanks Rotaryguy. I've been in the "if ain't broke, don't fix it" camp of RE5 ownership for 41 years. So this isn't a knee jerk. I've heard all the advocates for new oils etc over the years and my answer has always been "...when you've got 100,000K of good running on your wonder oil and still have a good engine", let me know". Meanwhile I'm sticking to GTX. Recommended, cheap, readily available.
But....... as mentioned, I had a long chat with a Castrol Tech (not a salesman, a chemical engineer in their tech department) and started wondering. My chat was fact checking claims I'd heard about a certain "wonder oil" for rotaries ("...it was used in fighter 'planes you know!"- yes it was. In WWI. When they had nothing better). So I never take advice at face value. I always do the research.
I'm getting to the pointy end of my life so am not worried about longevity of my engine. Besides, I have a spare NOS engine plus a full rebuild set. So it's simply a matter of why not?
My only problem is I feel it pointless unless I can quantify it somehow. Still working on that. My advice to anyone with an RE5 who asks, GTX in the sump, GTX in the tank.
I noted your interest in model engines from a previous post. I started with model engines in 1973. Model helicopters in 1981. Fixed pitch, no gyro, no training on the PC. I flew them on an off into the naughties and, as we all did back then, had a large box full of smashed helicopters and engines : ). That was parallel to using pylon engines, diesel engines, nitro, methanol, acetone, castor oil, gas turbine oils, "wonder" 2 stroke oils (only 4% needed....NOT), ABC barrels and finally 50cc twin and single gas. Sold them all 3 years ago after a 45 year involvement and they were directly responsible for my life's career choice in aviation.
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Post by kanonkopdrinker on Sept 1, 2021 3:26:55 GMT -5
And to add to the debate ….. the oil that carried the name GTX in 1974, is probably greatly different from the oil that calls itself GTX today …..
David
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Post by rotoryguy on Sept 1, 2021 18:21:02 GMT -5
" Besides, I have a spare NOS engine plus a full rebuild set. So it's simply a matter of why not?"
Wayne, I think you're just showing off! Ha Ha
Seriously though, I get what you're saying. I hope you can design some experiments which produce some quantifiable data - that would be very cool. Until then, I guess I go with OEM recommendations.
I will say however that gasoline will always be non-ethanol. I am so tired of cleaning rotted out carburetors and fuel systems. It doesn't take that long for E10 to wreck havoc.
"wonder" 2 stroke oils (only 4% needed....NOT)" Oh man, I used to hear this all the time about people running 100:1 oil ratios and claiming no plug fouling, increased rpm, blah blah. My money didn't come that easy so I was a lot more conservative. Although I can't say for certain, I doubt longevity was a benefit of the 100:1 ratios.
I'm also retired (this April) and along with several hiatus' due to marriage, kids and such, I've been flying models since I was 10. It sure was different back then! I'm glad you were able to make a career in aviation as the love for models doesn't ever go away, I think.
EDIT: Oh man Kanonkop, you said it!
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Post by kanonkopdrinker on Sept 2, 2021 7:10:07 GMT -5
Hi David- How did you get started with the DD40? Curious as to why you would've made the switch. Sorry, only just realised that I had not answered your question .... The reason for the swap in the metering tank to DD+40, was that I have a huge drum of it for the Norton Interpol 2 and F1; plus, GTX is getting harder to find - so I continued to use what I had of the latter in the engine sump, but for the metering tank, figured that if Norton was happy to recommend it for their rotaries, and 'DD' standing for Detroit Diesel (which are 2-strokes) with a very low ash-content .... it should be okay for RE5 use. And years later, I find this to be the case. David PS/ ' Kanonkop', yes I should explain .... these are among my favourite reds .... especially their Paul Sauer ... another passion of mine! |
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Post by goandy on Sept 3, 2021 4:27:13 GMT -5
I've been using premix 2 stroke at 100:1 in my tank for years on my bike. It also has 2 stroke in the oil tank but went premix when the oil pump stopped pumping (no, still haven't fixed it after 5 years. I've been busy!). No adverse effects here except for a large cloud of smoke when it gets started after a long break. Most likely petrol evaporating in carby bowl, leaving oil behind to create a very oily mix... Sorry Tim! Wayne, I'm proud of you.  |
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Post by timpa136 on Sept 3, 2021 16:29:50 GMT -5
I've been using premix 2 stroke at 100:1 in my tank for years on my bike. It also has 2 stroke in the oil tank but went premix when the oil pump stopped pumping (no, still haven't fixed it after 5 years. I've been busy!). No adverse effects here except for a large cloud of smoke when it gets started after a long break. Most likely petrol evaporating in carby bowl, leaving oil behind to create a very oily mix... Sorry Tim! Wayne, I'm proud of you. He-He-He-He, I'm sorry, too Andy.  |
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Post by rotoryguy on Sept 3, 2021 16:55:47 GMT -5
Hi David- How did you get started with the DD40? Curious as to why you would've made the switch. Sorry, only just realised that I had not answered your question .... The reason for the swap in the metering tank to DD+40, was that I have a huge drum of it for the Norton Interpol 2 and F1; plus, GTX is getting harder to find - so I continued to use what I had of the latter in the engine sump, but for the metering tank, figured that if Norton was happy to recommend it for their rotaries, and 'DD' standing for Detroit Diesel (which are 2-strokes) with a very low ash-content .... it should be okay for RE5 use. And years later, I find this to be the case. David PS/ ' Kanonkop', yes I should explain .... these are among my favourite reds .... especially their Paul Sauer ... another passion of mine! Very interesting and thank you for that! I'm curious if available in US. Got to be there's still plenty of Detroit Diesels around eh? Now you have me interested in the Kanonkop. I think I'll make a run the wine store soon! |
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Post by jabbasre5 on Oct 27, 2021 18:27:08 GMT -5
I've been using premix 2 stroke at 100:1 in my tank for years on my bike. It also has 2 stroke in the oil tank but went premix when the oil pump stopped pumping (no, still haven't fixed it after 5 years. I've been busy!). No adverse effects here except for a large cloud of smoke when it gets started after a long break. Most likely petrol evaporating in carby bowl, leaving oil behind to create a very oily mix... Sorry Tim! Wayne, I'm proud of you. This! One day I will sit down at my computer and explain why Mazda did what they did and what I would guesstimate Suzuki did in regards to apex side seal oiling. It’s not what anyone here thinks it’s actually very simple. Use 2 stroke in the tank it is designed to burn but DO NOT put a Tcw oil in it. Use anything rated Jaso fc or better is fd. Under no condition u should EVER use a tcw oil in anything but an outboard. My rant. FYI I have fd’s with over 100k I service one owner is about to pass 200k. I tell them add 1/2 oz of oil to the tank per gallon. Keep the metering pump and ready for this. Don’t drop your coffee, Use synthetic oil with oe made in Japan Mazda filter. Also I get that the engine can use sump oil for lubricant and it certainly lasts a long time. but as I’m sure goandy has seen, the carbon build up is insane once u pull the engine apart. Take the same engine running low ash 2stroke and the difference is night and day. But in the end it’s your machine, so what ever makes you happy. I also like the smell of 2stroke, I’m running repsoil in the tank and I’m sure it what brp use in the brand they sell. Smells like it at least. |
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Post by wayne on Oct 28, 2021 4:52:35 GMT -5
Thanks JABBASRE5. Please do..... sit down at your computer and explain. I'm always open and always willing to learn (as I believe are many others).
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Post by rotoryguy on Oct 28, 2021 5:54:11 GMT -5
Agreed. Jabbasre5 I would definitely like to learn more about this.
It just seems right to me to burn ashless oil (made for burning) rather than a regular lubricating oil.
Having rebuilt countless engines from models to lawn equipment to motorcycles there is nothing quite like chiseling your way thru gunk in an engine! Heck, if you had to you could probably run bacon grease but the long term affects are what interests me. I want a long lasting engine, with fantastic lubrication that has little or no wear (and cake too).....
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Post by jabbasre5 on Oct 28, 2021 22:32:41 GMT -5
It was always a question that remained vaguely answered any time I went to Hiroshima. Why not use 2 stroke with a bottle. All the race engines did, yet the consumer engines were stuck with oil that would cake on the rotors and stick seals. Well the Japanese are extremely great people to do business with, but when it comes to certain questions sometimes it’s just too much politeness or perhaps just japenglish and they are vague. Anyhow, during a visit I was blessed with meeting Kenichi son. Well the answer that plagues us was answered as politely and yet understand completely in one sentence translated. We experimented with that with the early cars in Japan and we were told it was “troublesome” to carry 2 types of oil. We worried one might mistakenly add wrong oil to the tank and decided it unwise to cause such an inconvenience. His translated words as I remember them. See simple really, they knew that idiots would do stupid things. So that is what I imagined the Suzuki engineers were thinking. 2 types of oil? They burn their damn legs on the exhaust you think they would put the correct oil in the sump? Of course in polite Japanese naturally. Originally the engines did not meter oil it was added when the phase out of lead was for seen. At least with the first Mazda engines in testing l8a.
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