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Post by Jess on Oct 9, 2012 22:36:47 GMT -5
The short version is that ALL Re5's started life as an M. At some point in time management made the decision that the cosmetics of the M were the reason for poor sales. They decided to make a change to the more conventional A.
It is my opinion that precious few bikes were actually converted once delivered. Again, no records exist, so no one knows.
I have heard a bunch of people over the years say that the front harness is proof that their bike was a "convert". Again... Nope.
I have NOS front harnesses for the M and the A. All harnesses started as an M harness. They were then modified at the factory to become A harnesses.
The workmanship level is atrocious. Suzuki could not even spell QC in the seventies. It is my opinion after looking at hundreds of harnesses over the years that this is not evidence of a conversion at the dealership.
There is no way the factory would have sent a front "pigtail" to dealers and let dealership mechanics cut and splice.
As for the paint, if you have 250 tanks waiting to go on finished bikes, and management has said, no more M models (Blue or red) out the door... you take them back to paint and shoot a coat of black over the top.
I have personally removed a bike from the crate (A model). On the side of the crate the M was crossed out, and A was stenciled on the side. This was done at the factory.
To Snow:
Your bikes may very well have been converted at the dealership. No records exist to prove or disprove this. Depending upon the unit number (VIN), it may be more or less likely.
Again, Just my 2 cents...
Best,
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Post by wayne on Oct 10, 2012 5:34:01 GMT -5
No indication eh ? Dang.......another good story scuttled.
As for the source of those incorrect figures Dan, therein lies the problem with the internet. Someone can post it, someone else then uses that as the citation, authority, reference and it becomes "true" with no actual foundation for the information.
I refer back to my discussion with aforementioned producer of the parts book. He used as his authority someone or another on the net who spoke "knowledgeably" about the special "L" models which were only made available in the US. My drunk uncle Fred could post something on the the net but it hardly makes it reliable or truthful. Unfortunately the net is sometimes being taken too seriously as a reliable reference source.
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Oct 10, 2012 10:59:44 GMT -5
I'd like to add another voice to the discussion. I was working at Suzuki dealers throughout the entire RE5 era. I then went to work for American Suzuki in November of 1981. The dealer I worked for from 1976 through 1981 probably sold more RE5s than most as he purchased at least a dozen, maybe more in 1977 at a huge discount from the US distributor when they were trying to get rid of the leftover A models. As I had mentioned earlier, we did a lot of service work on them, at one time having as many as 6 of them in the shop at the same time. We did not "convert" any of them. When i worked for American Suzuki (at that time actually known as US Suzuki) I never saw any evidence or heard any discussion of units being "converted." From my experience with Suzuki I cannot conceive of them having the dealers "convert" M models to A models. It would have been done by the factory, or at the very least, by teams consisting of Factory and US Suzuki workers in the warehouses before shipment to the dealer. If someone has definitve proof of units being converted at the dealership I'll stand corrected, but I don't buy it. It's possible they had some units already crated as M models, then opened them and changed them, but they didn't send out "kits" to the dealer to do it. Just my opinion, but based on experience and 15 years of working with Suzuki. While I was in my training at Suzuki in November/December of 198i, one of the segments was RE5 training. Nothing was ever mentioned about "conversions."
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Oct 10, 2012 11:09:29 GMT -5
We sold over a dozen RE5s in 1977 and 1978. The were all "A" models. Some states may have allowed them to be titled as 77 models. Florida did not. One of the reasons for the standardization of VIN numbers to the 17 digit automotive format in 1981 was to prevent this sort of thing. Prior to that it was fairly common for leftovers that weren't sold to be re-titled for the next year. It made (makes) it a nightmare to try and get parts to fix things.
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Post by bdalameda on Oct 10, 2012 12:48:52 GMT -5
Years ago i was told by a Suzuki representative that the remaining unsold RE5M models in the US Suzuki warehouses were returned to Japan and converted into RE5A models. I have seen several of the original Suzuki shipping crates that had the RE5M blanked out and replaced with RE5A designations. I guess the question is did Suzuki convert RE5M's into Re5A's or did they convert their parts inventory and build RE5A's using reworked RE5M parts. I think probably both happened.
Jess do you know?
Dan
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Post by bdalameda on Oct 10, 2012 12:57:59 GMT -5
I'd like to add another voice to the discussion. I was working at Suzuki dealers throughout the entire RE5 era. I then went to work for American Suzuki in November of 1981. The dealer I worked for from 1976 through 1981 probably sold more RE5s than most as he purchased at least a dozen, maybe more in 1977 at a huge discount from the US distributor when they were trying to get rid of the leftover A models. As I had mentioned earlier, we did a lot of service work on them, at one time having as many as 6 of them in the shop at the same time. We did not "convert" any of them. When i worked for American Suzuki (at that time actually known as US Suzuki) I never saw any evidence or heard any discussion of units being "converted." From my experience with Suzuki I cannot conceive of them having the dealers "convert" M models to A models. It would have been done by the factory, or at the very least, by teams consisting of Factory and US Suzuki workers in the warehouses before shipment to the dealer. If someone has definitve proof of units being converted at the dealership I'll stand corrected, but I don't buy it. It's possible they had some units already crated as M models, then opened them and changed them, but they didn't send out "kits" to the dealer to do it. Just my opinion, but based on experience and 15 years of working with Suzuki. While I was in my training at Suzuki in November/December of 198i, one of the segments was RE5 training. Nothing was ever mentioned about "conversions." I too worked at a Suzuki dealership at the time and I agree that Suzuki did not have any dealerships convert RE5M's to Re5A's. I do remember Suzuki sending out some free RE5 touring kits (Farings, bags etc.) to try and sweeten the deal and help sell RE5M models that dealers had sitting on the floor. Also never discussed but I know that Suzuki replaced some seats that customers complained about being uncomfortable with a redesigned seat with different foam and slightly different pan. I remember seeing a parts bulletin about this. I have never heard about this in any RE5 discussions.\ \Dan
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Post by bdalameda on Oct 10, 2012 21:41:07 GMT -5
I took a look at the zero miles RE5 today. The dealership that is selling really does not know anything about Re5's and they seemed to welcome some information about it. I explained that it was a 1976 model not 1977 as they were advertising. The bike was found in the back of a warehouse at the shipping port of Oakland, Ca. No real information about who owned and why it was sitting there for 36 years. Not sure if it was found in the crate or not. It does have a couple of small patches of corrosion on the engine and the LH muffler has a pretty good ding in it and the heat shield. It definitely has never been run and is almost pristine.
Dan
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Post by Jess on Oct 10, 2012 23:28:36 GMT -5
To Dan: (attempt to answer the question you posed) I have heard stories that techs were sent to dealers to convert M's that had been sitting to A's in hopes of raising sales. The M parts were then supposed to be taken/destroyed. I have never gotten verification of this other than second hand stories. I take this story as urban legend, it may have happened but I have never met anyone that said, yep... I did that. My position is that most, if not all A's were destined to be M's from the outset. The parts had already been produced and were just modified for use when the change came down from management. It appears (and is logical) that there was some time period that was transitional, so there are some anomalies (like snows fuel tanks, black paint over red). Also, the example that I gave about the A I uncrated a few years ago. I have 16124 (late production) in my collection. This is not a "spray over" the only paint is black. As I said in an earlier post, the B points wire is neatly clipped from the harness. It is fascinating to me as I have had folks over the years argue fervently that their bike was converted. They get nuts about putting it "back to original" Some have even gotten downright angry, ready to go to blows about it. I have no earthly idea as to why it is so important to some folks... but apparently it is. I find it both strange and somewhat amusing. My attitude is frankly... who cares. If you like the look of the M, buy an M. If you like the look of an A buy an A. If you think the bike looks great in pink with bright green polka dots... bless you... it's your bike. Bottom line, As far as I know... no records exist. So the point is really moot.People with the "originality fetish" need to stay away from this bike. There are so many variations on so many different parts that it is really difficult to tell what came with what. The company was hemmoraging cash on this project. There were multiple subcontractors/suppliers that parts variations are very common. I have two M's that are on the MSO. There are many differences between the bikes and they are only a few hundred apart in production sequence. I used to find going to vintage Japanese shows entertaining. I now find it irritating. My bike gets judged on originality by a guy who has read about Re5's, but never seen one. Or he sold two 35 years ago, so he is an "expert". When Cycle world was holding the Concourse d'oilegance near to me, that was an enjoyable event. The bikes had to be ridden on a 50 mile road course. That kept the obsessive away. In my humble opinion the bikes need to be ridden and enjoyed. some would find it sacrilegious, but the bike that started this thread, I would buy, ride and enjoy. "Investment bikers" have ruined the sport, and damaged the marketplace. Again... all of the above is just my thoughts. Yours may be different. Best,
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Post by goandy on Oct 10, 2012 23:52:28 GMT -5
Yup, what he said /\
As an aside, does anyone know what the difference is between the left hand drive models for the US and right hand drive models for Japan and Australia? I'm darned if I can tell but I really want my bike to be completely original. A friend of a friend's mate told me about this somewhere ages ago, I think. Maybe I'll just offset the handlebars an inch or so to the right for mine. I guess also to be technically correct, being "Down Under", I should ride the bike with my feet on the bars and hands on the footpegs. But that would just be silly.
Jeez, if I spent as much time working on the bike as I do typing dribble, I'd actually get it going!
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Post by raychappo on Oct 11, 2012 1:04:05 GMT -5
Didn't the US models have red reflectors on the indicators where as other markets had orange? I know the US models had higher bars.
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Oct 11, 2012 7:32:04 GMT -5
Amen!. I'm not a purist. I subscribe to the Motorcycle Classics philosophy of "Ride 'em, don't hide 'em." As I'm restoring my unit I intend to make it the way I want it to be. One of the joys (IMHO) of owning any bike is the ability to personalize it, then utilize those changes to enhance your riding experience, purists be damned.
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Post by wayne on Oct 12, 2012 4:07:43 GMT -5
To Dan: (attempt to answer the question you posed) I have heard stories that techs were sent to dealers to convert M's that had been sitting to A's in hopes of raising sales. The M parts were then supposed to be taken/destroyed. I have never gotten verification of this other than second hand stories. I take this story as urban legend, it may have happened but I have never met anyone that said, yep... I did that. Jess (and Gerry), I have spoken on the 'phone to a dealer who sold me the M model tank (and he had sidecovers) that he personally removed from one of his showroom M's when he received the changeover kit. He kept the tank and sidecovers for 25 years and I bought them around 2000. I also know the guy who Suzuki contracted to collect up the M model parts and destroy them after the conversions were done. He told me that I was very lucky to get the set I mentioned above as he thought he got them all. His name is Ray Bradkey and he runs "SuziParts" now in Australia. I have no doubt that here in Australia this really happened.
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Post by wayne on Oct 12, 2012 6:03:16 GMT -5
I have an A that I thought was a conversion. Don't care. It's still an A, converted or not. I would not put it back to "original" because as far as I am concerned, the conversion is as it was sold. Leaving it as an A is being a purist in this case.
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Post by Jess on Oct 12, 2012 7:38:30 GMT -5
Jess (and Gerry), I have spoken on the 'phone to a dealer who sold me the M model tank (and he had sidecovers) that he personally removed from one of his showroom M's when he received the changeover kit. He kept the tank and sidecovers for 25 years and I bought them around 2000.
I also know the guy who Suzuki contracted to collect up the M model parts and destroy them after the conversions were done. He told me that I was very lucky to get the set I mentioned above as he thought he got them all. His name is Ray Bradkey and he runs "SuziParts" now in Australia. I have no doubt that here in Australia this really happened.
Wayne... Outstanding! Thanks for that! Confirmation!
Cheers!
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Oct 12, 2012 23:46:25 GMT -5
Jess (and Gerry), I have spoken on the 'phone to a dealer who sold me the M model tank (and he had sidecovers) that he personally removed from one of his showroom M's when he received the changeover kit. He kept the tank and sidecovers for 25 years and I bought them around 2000. I also know the guy who Suzuki contracted to collect up the M model parts and destroy them after the conversions were done. He told me that I was very lucky to get the set I mentioned above as he thought he got them all. His name is Ray Bradkey and he runs "SuziParts" now in Australia. I have no doubt that here in Australia this really happened Interesting. I wonder if it was done that way anywhere else in the world. I'm still fairly certain it wasn't done that way in the US.
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