Can't find neutral

[Tony]

Hi all,

following from my earlier thread on clutch rumble on the weekend I finally had time to finish the job and get the bike back on the road.

Good news, clutch rumble has gone away. It was the loose clutch nut!

Bad news, I can't get neutral from first gear...lots of swearing noises and grinding of teeth!

With the bike on the centre stand I can get neutral from first very easily, but with the bike on its wheels it just won't happen, no matter how much force I use on the lever or rock the bike. It just ain't happening. I can get neutral though from second reasonably easily.

I don't understand how this can be just from moving the bike from the centre stand to being on both wheels.

The bike rides and changes gear fine all the way to top gear and back again, no noises or grinding or anything, but if you stop in first you can't get it into neutral unless you go via second. A hot engine makes no difference. The clutch works fine as well and is properly adjusted.

I'm thinking that I have disturbed the relationship between the teeth on the end of the gear shifting shifting shaft and the teeth on the gear at the end of the of the gear shifting cam. They are both very exposed when the clutch is out. I have looked at the manual but it really isn't much help.

Finding neutral prior to this latest time on the bench was easy.

So questions...

Anyone got an explanation as to why I can change easily into neutral when bike is on the centre stand but can't when it is on its wheels?

Anyone got any ideas as to what has gone wrong?

If people think that my theory is correct, can someone give me some advice on how the two sets of teeth should be aligned. Any suggestions on how to fix this without taking the RH engine cover off AGAIN would be appreciated as well.


thanks

Tony

[goandy]

Maybe some form of clutch drag? Try tightening the clutch release cable a bit and see if that works?

I know you have adjusted it all up but I can't think of anything else other than drag that would have those symptoms.

[wayne]

The teeth should be aligned symmetrically. When they mesh one is slightly larger than the other. If the larger one has 1 tooth showing above then it should also have one tooth showing below.

Agree with Andy. On the centre stand in first the rear wheel would be free spinning reducing the effect of clutch drag. On the ground and stationary against clutch drag it would be loading up the drive train.

[gerryggg]

If adjusting the release screw and cable doesn't eliminate the drag, you either have one or more warped driven plates or something got damaged when the clutch nut came loose, causing one or more of the plates to hang up. My bet is on one or more warped driven plates, overheated while you were dealing with the "growling." I'd pull them out and check them on a surface plate.

[bdalameda]

Can you put it in neutral while you are still rolling? If it is easy to put into neutral when you come to a stop while still moving the problem is the clutch dragging. Are you sure that you have the clutch adjusted correctly? make sure the clutch cable is fully loosened befor you adjust the clutch mechanism. When you bottom the clutch adjuster screw on the mechanism make sure the clutch mechanism is fully screwed out when you make the adjustment. If the clutch is not pushing the clutch hub out far enough the clutch may be dragging a little even if it feels like it is working correctly.

Dan

[re5guy]

Morning Tony,

One thing that may change from being on the centre stand to being on it's wheels is the tension of the drive chain to the back wheel. If the chain is too tight it make it difficult to get into neutral. The radius of the swing arm shouldn't allow this, but I have seen it in the past.

Guy

[redbug2]

Dan's test to put in neutral while rolling is a good one. Also, while up on the stand with rear brake on can you put it in neutral? Probably not...

How thick of a transmission oil did you put in?

Sounds like clutch drag.

[Tony]

Thanks gents,

General consensus seems to be clutch drag, so I will go and investigate that more.

In answer to some of the suggestions made
- I did try to hit neutral while rolling...nope didn't work
- I did check the chain tension, it is fine
- the oil is Active 4t 15-w 50 which I have run in the gearbox for a couple of years with no problems.

I am reasonably confident that the teeth are aligned as you say Wayne, I do recall looking at them when I had the clutch out, but memories as we know can be faulty....

Warped plates? maybe but I would doubt it. They are brand new with new springs. I have ridden the bike with them in (when the clutch rumbled) and they were fine. It has maybe done 50km max with those plates in. This has only happened since I tightened the clutch nut.

I think I will pull apart the the clutch adjustment mechanism again and have another play and report back.

Tony

[bdalameda]

When you had the clutch cover off did you remove any of the shifting mechanism? The two small shift pawls that fit inside the shifting ratchet assembly are different and could possibly be reversed by accident.

[Tony]

Yeah Dan that is possible and I am wondering if I did do something like that.

This afternoon I ended up completely undoing the clutch adjusters including undoing and removing the arm behind the clutch adjustment cover and winding out the preloading screw. Then I started her up on the stand. Unloaded every thing worked as it should like before even without the clutch, but if I stood on the rear brake as suggested and loaded the drive train then I couldn't get it into neutral from first just like before,

So what are peoples thoughts with this new information?

cheers

Tony

[bdalameda]

The fact that it will go into neutral with everything unloaded still points to the clutch not releasing all the way. There is also one other thing to check. After you tightened the inner clutch hub nut did you check to see if the inner clutch hub spun freely? I have seen one other bike that if the inner clutch hub nut was overtightened it would bind the inner and outer hubs together and this would act just like the clutch dragging and make it difficult to find neutral.

[Tony]

Ok got it sorted. It was clutch drag but it wasn't one issue, it was several conspiring against me so I thought I would share as some of you would be interested.

A couple of years ago I had my clutch basket welded up and a band put around the outside to hold it all together. At the time it worked fine, clutch gave no issues, so all good.

Then I decided I needed to put new clutch plates in because I had nearly run out of adjustment. When the new plates arrived from Jess there were 2 different types. 4 had the "tangs" (ok I couldn't think of a better word to describe the bits of the clutch plate that poke out and sit in the basket grooves, so tangs they are), anyway the tangs on 4 were metal like the 8 I was replacing, but the other 4 tangs seem to be made of clutch material...anyway not that important.

What is important is that the tangs on the 8 original clutch plates and 4 of the replacement are the same but the tangs on the 4 other ones are just slightly wider.

The other point of interest is that the original 8 clutch plates were all well within spec still. The reason I had run out of adjustment was because either the clutch cable has stretched or it was always to long...so I will need to sort that.

Anyway when I originally replaced the clutch plates I must have put the 4 "larger" plates in first and the 4 others in second. this worked fine, but after I had fixed the clutch rumble I put the plates in the other way around. This was an issue because when the band got put on, the outer end of the clutch basket was compressed just slightly and so the wider plates get stuck in them.

So now I was a bit paranoid about the clutch dragging again, so I put in the the 4 new steel plates and then 4 of the "old" plates and will keep the others for spare.

Simple fix and now all good.

cheers.

[goandy]

Glad to hear you fixed it!

[gerryggg]

I've seen clutch drag caused by replacement plates hanging up in the basket before. The Japanese aren't always real precise about the slots in their clutch baskets and sometimes just rotating the plates on re-assembly can cause drag where none existed before.