Post by wayne on Oct 9, 2016 19:03:15 GMT -5
Thanks for suggesting this FAQ Timpa136. The first section deals with repairing the original CDI unit. Following are some general notes about the CDI and finally some alternatives. Finally among the posts that follow there are commenst about the potting and tips about removing it. Also a very clever "get the bike home" kit for CDI failure.
CDI BOX REPAIR 1
The following has been around for a some time. It was originally posted by member RE5MAN (thanks to Shaun). There are some other names mentioned within the post. I'll leave them in so those blokes "live on". They all appear to be contributors.
These instructions have been used by a friend of mine to successfully repair a CDI and I dare say by many other people as well. Use with confidence. One of Shaun's repairs are still running in his bike 6 years later at the time of writing (late 2016), Following this article are other notes about the CDI, wiring diagrams to make your own CDI and other useful bits and pieces................Wayne
Hi Guys,
Here’s my attempt at repairing my 2 CDI Boxes which have failed. No. 1 box has a very weak spark ,yellow in colour and is not strong enough to run the motor.
No.2 box has no whine and no spark at all. Following Gunnar Bakken’s advice on Tonny’s RE5.DK website I purchased some 1N4007 Silicon Rectifier Diodes. Tools required are a soldering iron, solder for circuit board work and a phillips type screwdriver. I used a crocodile clip as a heat sink to try and protect the board and some black insulating tape which I used to reinforce the cable entry point where it enters the box. I am no expert at soldering or camera shots so apologies for any out of focus shots or shoddy looking work.
All references to wires and cables etc.are made with the box in the position below .
Open the back of the box removing the 4 screws, cover and rubber gasket.
1 Remove the screw at the bottom left-hand corner[under the entry cable]holding the black and orange
wire to circuit board.
2 Remove the screw at the bottom right-hand corner holding the black/white wire to circuit board.[this wire comes from the entry cable].
3 Remove small screw on the upper right-side of circuit board[adjacent to the screw hole for locating the back cover of CDI Box].
4 Remove the small screw directly opposite No.3 screw mentioned above, holding orange wire to circuit board.
5 At the bottom right of box, immediately left of the screw you have removed, there is a terminal with 2 wires on it.. A black /yellow wire from the cable entering the box and a black wire coming from under the circuit board. Unsolder both of these wires.
6 To the left of these wires is another terminal with a black wire and a blue wire on it. You need to unsolder the blue wire which comes up from under the circuit board.
7 I removed the plastic cable-tie pictured above to allow some movement of the wires[some of them are very stiff].
8 At the extreme top of the picture [above] you can see 3 wires.1 black,1 green and 1 white. Unsolder the green wire.
9 The black and white wires come from the front of the CDI Box .You can see where they are attached in the picture (below). Unsolder both of these wires.
10 I also removed the black wire from under the circuit board which locates on Sanyo 2SF 1188, the component at the bottom left of box just above where the cable enters.
11 Remove the cable/grommet from the box and you should be able to gently ease the circuit board up from the right-hand side so you can see the underneath..
The 4 diodes which need to be replaced are immediately above to the right of the cable entry point . (as shown)
Position the new diodes with their marking band on the bodies on the left-hand side[as in picture].
Unsolder and pull out the old diodes .Some of their holes will block up with solder .I used the crocodile clip to help the circuit board with the heat. Bend the new diode legs and insert into their holes, using the soldering iron to heat the solder blocking any holes. I bent the legs of the new diodes and soldered them onto the board, cutting off the excess with wire snips.
Lower the circuit board and resolder all the wires removed and replace screws etc. You should end up like the picture below.
I used insulating tape to strengthen the cable entry point. I connected both units to my RE5 with spark plug grounded and both produced a whine and a strong blue spark. I installed the plug and she fired up!!
I will have to run the boxes to see how long they last but at least I have 3 working CDI Boxes again. Cheers, Shaun
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Here are some helpful comments from Gunnar Bakken:
The most common failure is the break down of 2 diodes in the high voltage DC circuit of the chopper circuit from the switcing transformer (320-360 VDC). These diodes are to be changed to a modern and more relaiable type 1N4007 or similar.
These 2 diodes are located in the bottom of the circuit board, just right of the outgoing CDI connecting cable.
There are also 2 more diodes protecting and grounding the output thyristor from DC sparks from the firing capasitor. These 2 diodes are located in the same area of the circuit board just above the 2 previous described diodes. Change also these diodes to 1N4007, and you can probably forget the CDI.
I ( Gunnar Bakken) and my friend have run our 2 RE-5 about 90.000 km and we never had a CDI failure. I recommend the change of diodes preventive, so that the other more "hard to find" electronics in the CDI has their best operating conditions. The 4 diodes should not cost more than 1USD at the nearest radio shop.
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Unknown source:
My cdi unit has failed in the past, once only. This time it was a large capacitor embedded in resin. This was replaced by replacing it with a modern component, Care taken to get the polarity correct. The connections for the original component were simply cut and the new leads connected.The capacitor was just fitted in the cavity in the front section of the CDI unit. The faulty capacitor was just left embedded in resin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Board Member "Hunter"- LIMP HOME ALTERNATIVE
I have made up a "limp home" arrangement using a GT750 coil and connector and have it mounted under the seat. I would simply disconnect the CDI plug and connect my "unit" to that connector and connect the plug lead to plug and just have a convential points/coil ignition for a short time.
This must be removed asap as it does mean higher current in the circuit and could burn out points prematurely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some points from Sam Costanzo as related to a member of the old board, Vance Stanley:
I was inquiring about some shocks with Sam Costanzo and he noticed our emails about the CDI unit. Some CDI's did in fact Buzz a bit he said. It's hard to tell without hearing it. i.e. one mans buzz is another mans whistle. He did confirm that continuous voltage output from a CDI unit is not a good sign and he mentioned the Thyristor could be suspect. Sam is pretty much the expert on the RE5 so I would be inclined to respect his opinion. Also, he said that they run their RE5 race bikes without the CDI unit.
He said they run strong without it but he has not tried to street ride an RE5 with the CDI bypassed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Board Member T108167:
A friend 's RE5 has a CDI which makes a lot of whining noise. Strong whining means high voltage at the input of the thyristor and on the primary of the coil. In simple words: very strong spark.
Low whining noise or using unusual sparkplugs mean low voltage and or weak spark. One can not make a correlation between the 'sound' and the voltage level out of the box. The sound is due to mechanical tolerances and their interaction with the exact frequency of the oscillator in the box. One can have a loud or quiet box and still have a proper output to the coil. With that said, a distinctly different sound such as low frequency 'buzzing' would be an indication of circuit failure.
As to the spark plug, my understanding of the Wankel is that the ignition and propagation of the flame front through the mixture is directly related to efficiency. Note the use of leading and trailing (2 plugs) plugs in the Mazda Rotary. So a long, strong spark would seem to be better than a short, weak one for our purposes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Charlie", possibly on the old board. I have edited parts of this as some of the information is no longer relevant and added some information.........Wayne
ALTERNATIVES:
To everyone in the group with failed CDI boxes:
I have spent considerable effort researching a replacement for a failed CDI assembly. The are some options available that I wish to share with the RE5 group:
1- Rotary Recycle replacement electronic ignition. There are dozens of these in the field and they work very well and are robust and simple to install. Unfortunately, they are not available all the time. Member Jess may occasionally put up a post asking for interest and follow this up with a production run.
2- CDI designed for small motors from MSD in Texas. Price is ....$130 for the unit that works with existing points and coil. A connector needs to be added to the unit wiring to match the RE5 harness. MSD's P/N is 4150 for the CDI module. You need only the module, not the coil and wire that come in kit form when the P/N is prefixed by a KT. You can see the unit on factorydirectperf.com/kart1.htl, but listed under a different number. To get the right part (a 4150 module), order by phone at 888-258-3835. The unit has 5 wires. There are 2 ground wires that get tied together.
You will need an adaptor plate to mount the unit as the two mounting holes are different spacing. This should be the cheapest fix here in the USA. This unit would also make a good on-board spare that can be carried in the event of a road failure. (It does not need to be bolted on to work!)
The attachments show a picture of the unit for option 2, without a mounting plate.
3- Repair (see initial paragraphs in this FAQ)
4- Build your own (see below for wiring diagram). This particular unit has been built by MikeRE5. In the true spirit of board membership, Mike has kindly allowed me to share it:
This diagram by Board Member RE5Mike shows the layout for a home built CDI.........Mike built this unit and tested it around 2001, I also tested it on my own RE5 and it worked flawlessly. I believe Mike told me that it fires the plug 6 times for each ignition. It noticeably improved starting as well.............Wayne
CDI BOX REPAIR 1
The following has been around for a some time. It was originally posted by member RE5MAN (thanks to Shaun). There are some other names mentioned within the post. I'll leave them in so those blokes "live on". They all appear to be contributors.
These instructions have been used by a friend of mine to successfully repair a CDI and I dare say by many other people as well. Use with confidence. One of Shaun's repairs are still running in his bike 6 years later at the time of writing (late 2016), Following this article are other notes about the CDI, wiring diagrams to make your own CDI and other useful bits and pieces................Wayne
Hi Guys,
Here’s my attempt at repairing my 2 CDI Boxes which have failed. No. 1 box has a very weak spark ,yellow in colour and is not strong enough to run the motor.
No.2 box has no whine and no spark at all. Following Gunnar Bakken’s advice on Tonny’s RE5.DK website I purchased some 1N4007 Silicon Rectifier Diodes. Tools required are a soldering iron, solder for circuit board work and a phillips type screwdriver. I used a crocodile clip as a heat sink to try and protect the board and some black insulating tape which I used to reinforce the cable entry point where it enters the box. I am no expert at soldering or camera shots so apologies for any out of focus shots or shoddy looking work.
All references to wires and cables etc.are made with the box in the position below .
Open the back of the box removing the 4 screws, cover and rubber gasket.
1 Remove the screw at the bottom left-hand corner[under the entry cable]holding the black and orange
wire to circuit board.
2 Remove the screw at the bottom right-hand corner holding the black/white wire to circuit board.[this wire comes from the entry cable].
3 Remove small screw on the upper right-side of circuit board[adjacent to the screw hole for locating the back cover of CDI Box].
4 Remove the small screw directly opposite No.3 screw mentioned above, holding orange wire to circuit board.
5 At the bottom right of box, immediately left of the screw you have removed, there is a terminal with 2 wires on it.. A black /yellow wire from the cable entering the box and a black wire coming from under the circuit board. Unsolder both of these wires.
6 To the left of these wires is another terminal with a black wire and a blue wire on it. You need to unsolder the blue wire which comes up from under the circuit board.
7 I removed the plastic cable-tie pictured above to allow some movement of the wires[some of them are very stiff].
8 At the extreme top of the picture [above] you can see 3 wires.1 black,1 green and 1 white. Unsolder the green wire.
9 The black and white wires come from the front of the CDI Box .You can see where they are attached in the picture (below). Unsolder both of these wires.
10 I also removed the black wire from under the circuit board which locates on Sanyo 2SF 1188, the component at the bottom left of box just above where the cable enters.
11 Remove the cable/grommet from the box and you should be able to gently ease the circuit board up from the right-hand side so you can see the underneath..
The 4 diodes which need to be replaced are immediately above to the right of the cable entry point . (as shown)
Position the new diodes with their marking band on the bodies on the left-hand side[as in picture].
Unsolder and pull out the old diodes .Some of their holes will block up with solder .I used the crocodile clip to help the circuit board with the heat. Bend the new diode legs and insert into their holes, using the soldering iron to heat the solder blocking any holes. I bent the legs of the new diodes and soldered them onto the board, cutting off the excess with wire snips.
Lower the circuit board and resolder all the wires removed and replace screws etc. You should end up like the picture below.
I used insulating tape to strengthen the cable entry point. I connected both units to my RE5 with spark plug grounded and both produced a whine and a strong blue spark. I installed the plug and she fired up!!
I will have to run the boxes to see how long they last but at least I have 3 working CDI Boxes again. Cheers, Shaun
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some helpful comments from Gunnar Bakken:
The most common failure is the break down of 2 diodes in the high voltage DC circuit of the chopper circuit from the switcing transformer (320-360 VDC). These diodes are to be changed to a modern and more relaiable type 1N4007 or similar.
These 2 diodes are located in the bottom of the circuit board, just right of the outgoing CDI connecting cable.
There are also 2 more diodes protecting and grounding the output thyristor from DC sparks from the firing capasitor. These 2 diodes are located in the same area of the circuit board just above the 2 previous described diodes. Change also these diodes to 1N4007, and you can probably forget the CDI.
I ( Gunnar Bakken) and my friend have run our 2 RE-5 about 90.000 km and we never had a CDI failure. I recommend the change of diodes preventive, so that the other more "hard to find" electronics in the CDI has their best operating conditions. The 4 diodes should not cost more than 1USD at the nearest radio shop.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unknown source:
My cdi unit has failed in the past, once only. This time it was a large capacitor embedded in resin. This was replaced by replacing it with a modern component, Care taken to get the polarity correct. The connections for the original component were simply cut and the new leads connected.The capacitor was just fitted in the cavity in the front section of the CDI unit. The faulty capacitor was just left embedded in resin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Board Member "Hunter"- LIMP HOME ALTERNATIVE
I have made up a "limp home" arrangement using a GT750 coil and connector and have it mounted under the seat. I would simply disconnect the CDI plug and connect my "unit" to that connector and connect the plug lead to plug and just have a convential points/coil ignition for a short time.
This must be removed asap as it does mean higher current in the circuit and could burn out points prematurely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some points from Sam Costanzo as related to a member of the old board, Vance Stanley:
I was inquiring about some shocks with Sam Costanzo and he noticed our emails about the CDI unit. Some CDI's did in fact Buzz a bit he said. It's hard to tell without hearing it. i.e. one mans buzz is another mans whistle. He did confirm that continuous voltage output from a CDI unit is not a good sign and he mentioned the Thyristor could be suspect. Sam is pretty much the expert on the RE5 so I would be inclined to respect his opinion. Also, he said that they run their RE5 race bikes without the CDI unit.
He said they run strong without it but he has not tried to street ride an RE5 with the CDI bypassed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Board Member T108167:
A friend 's RE5 has a CDI which makes a lot of whining noise. Strong whining means high voltage at the input of the thyristor and on the primary of the coil. In simple words: very strong spark.
Low whining noise or using unusual sparkplugs mean low voltage and or weak spark. One can not make a correlation between the 'sound' and the voltage level out of the box. The sound is due to mechanical tolerances and their interaction with the exact frequency of the oscillator in the box. One can have a loud or quiet box and still have a proper output to the coil. With that said, a distinctly different sound such as low frequency 'buzzing' would be an indication of circuit failure.
As to the spark plug, my understanding of the Wankel is that the ignition and propagation of the flame front through the mixture is directly related to efficiency. Note the use of leading and trailing (2 plugs) plugs in the Mazda Rotary. So a long, strong spark would seem to be better than a short, weak one for our purposes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Charlie", possibly on the old board. I have edited parts of this as some of the information is no longer relevant and added some information.........Wayne
ALTERNATIVES:
To everyone in the group with failed CDI boxes:
I have spent considerable effort researching a replacement for a failed CDI assembly. The are some options available that I wish to share with the RE5 group:
1- Rotary Recycle replacement electronic ignition. There are dozens of these in the field and they work very well and are robust and simple to install. Unfortunately, they are not available all the time. Member Jess may occasionally put up a post asking for interest and follow this up with a production run.
2- CDI designed for small motors from MSD in Texas. Price is ....$130 for the unit that works with existing points and coil. A connector needs to be added to the unit wiring to match the RE5 harness. MSD's P/N is 4150 for the CDI module. You need only the module, not the coil and wire that come in kit form when the P/N is prefixed by a KT. You can see the unit on factorydirectperf.com/kart1.htl, but listed under a different number. To get the right part (a 4150 module), order by phone at 888-258-3835. The unit has 5 wires. There are 2 ground wires that get tied together.
You will need an adaptor plate to mount the unit as the two mounting holes are different spacing. This should be the cheapest fix here in the USA. This unit would also make a good on-board spare that can be carried in the event of a road failure. (It does not need to be bolted on to work!)
The attachments show a picture of the unit for option 2, without a mounting plate.
3- Repair (see initial paragraphs in this FAQ)
4- Build your own (see below for wiring diagram). This particular unit has been built by MikeRE5. In the true spirit of board membership, Mike has kindly allowed me to share it:
This diagram by Board Member RE5Mike shows the layout for a home built CDI.........Mike built this unit and tested it around 2001, I also tested it on my own RE5 and it worked flawlessly. I believe Mike told me that it fires the plug 6 times for each ignition. It noticeably improved starting as well.............Wayne