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Post by goandy on Jan 7, 2017 5:53:51 GMT -5
Interesting. Wonder if they would sell small amounts of stock to remake some apex seals. The next question would be which grade to use... temps can get pretty high in them fancy wankel things!
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Post by timpa136 on Jan 7, 2017 10:52:24 GMT -5
Sounds like good material. The site says they can modify the material for a wide range of applications, too.
In wading thru my notes, I had written "cast iron graphite impregnated apex seal" . I had made a note of 266 degree rotor temperature. Exhaust temps of 14-1600 and a max of 1900 degrees.
Bummer that the CEM manufacturer closed up, that coating reduced a lot of wear problems in the center housing.
Charles, wasn't the CEM coating also proprietary? I think they used something very similar in the first RM bike cylinder bores.
Tim
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Post by charles on Jan 7, 2017 21:01:43 GMT -5
1. Yes, CEM was proprietary. 2. I believe that after the Rotary Revolution (sic), there was some cross fertilization in various other projects: The Yamaha Power Valve looks curiously like some of the Variable Overlap schemes examined in the Rotary years ( www.google.com/patents/US3347213?dq=walter+froede+overlap&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SOedU6aKFbTQsQTcjYCICw&ved=0CDkQ6wEwBA ) Elnisil/Nickasil was used in a variety of applications. Coatings were used in a variety of 2-stoke engines, esp. cylinder bores but the end of the 2-strokes ended that path. Also, "How do you rebore a flash plated cylinder made from soft aluminum?". The argument was always that if the Rotary ever met the Critical Mass in manufacturing, it would be able to become cheaper than the recip to produce and people would be able to manufacture efficiently. It came close but not close enough... CW
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Post by timpa136 on Jan 9, 2017 10:01:06 GMT -5
Or the RE5 magazine test that spoke of valves in the exhausts that controlled the flow of fresh air. People have been looking for those valves for 40 years.Don't tell Tim those valves don't exist. Those are fighting words................. Jeff I concede maybe I was a little gullible during class. I need other guys here that went to school to help dig me out. Oh OH Oh.
Tim
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Post by typ110 on Jan 27, 2017 13:07:35 GMT -5
In my humble opinion not only your apexseals are stuck but also the side seals. The only good option is to open up the engine. You will not get the seals completely free without doing so.
About ferrotic: this was the material used by NSU for the topseals in the Ro80 in combination with Nikasil for the rotor housing. This proofed to be the best material combination available in the later '70ies. Engines like these ran over 100.000 kms without problems. Suzuki just copied the materials from NSU....Nowadays there is a better material for the topseals: ceramic. I use it in my Ro80 although they are quite expensive. Ceramic has two advantages: lesser weight and lesser friction/wear.
Greetings,
Michel
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Post by re5rotary on Jan 28, 2017 1:15:18 GMT -5
Hi Michel can you tell us more about the ceramic top (apex?) seals? who makes them and who sells them? regards Terry
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Post by automoto on Jan 28, 2017 3:41:49 GMT -5
The muffler solution has been already done, sorry I missed the previous post.
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Post by typ110 on Jan 28, 2017 5:53:40 GMT -5
Hello Terry,
I buy the topseals in Germany from Dr. Fabritius, a Ro80-engine expert. I think I payed 1300 euro for a set a few years ago. Take in mind that a Ro80 engine has two rotors, so 6 seals are needed. As I mentioned before, the advantage of ceramic is the weight and friction. Weight of the topseals is important due to centrifugal force. Friction is important to 'save' the rotorhousings.
The downside of ceramic seals are that the rotorhousings have to be in perfect condition: the ceramic seals have a lot lesser friction on the housings and therefore there is hardly no "breaking-in".
I have a few pictures of the seals from an engine I have rebuild a few years ago. Do not know how to post them, sorry....
Have a nice day,
Michel
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Post by re5rotary on Jan 29, 2017 2:47:07 GMT -5
Hi Michel thanks for that, does he have a website or do you have an email address? Does he have other seals and parts such as side seals or corner seals. I guess I also need to know if he speaks English? thanks Terry
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Post by typ110 on Jan 29, 2017 10:49:26 GMT -5
Hi Terry,
Dr. Fabritius does not have a working website, I am sorry! His emailadress is: m.fabritius(@)t-online.de, phonenumber 0049 6196 2 34 68. He has all the seals and has several solutions for better Ro80 and NSU Spider-engines: unbreakable and double sideseals in one nut, spiral springs instead of the Original springs under the corner seals and so on....
I think his co-worker speaks English. If not, I can offer you help/translation. Do you have a Ro80?
Have a nice day,
Michel
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Post by goandy on Jan 29, 2017 23:55:26 GMT -5
Sounds very interesting. As far as I've been led to believe, RE5 apex seals might be identical to Ro80 apex seals.... Ceramic ones could be a good answer. Just need good uncracked housings! We can re-profile the housing surface if it has grooves and chatter marks.
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Post by re5rotary on Jan 30, 2017 0:33:34 GMT -5
Hi Michel/Andy Re5 seals are identical to Ro80 ones, I have rebuilt both types and in fact I used some spare RE5 seals on the first Ro80 engine I built. I have since foolishly sold my Ro80 but still have a number of Re5 engines to rebuild. I have made some progress on having the side plates recoated and the same place thinks they can fix the cracked housings Michel do you have any photos of the parts Dr Fabritius has? Maybe you can email them to me direct terrycartwright at clear.net.nz
thanks terry
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Post by Guido on Jan 30, 2017 5:01:01 GMT -5
Dear All, I´m also located in Germany and there is a good alternative in the RO80club international. They provided all sealings you need also ceramic ones. They have tested the ceramic ones for 10.000km in an RO 80 and it works very well. Here is the link to the home page you can also swith to english. Member of the club can buy cheaper than non member. www.ro80club.org/en/clubservice/spare-parts
Best Regards
Guido
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Post by typ110 on Jan 30, 2017 12:42:14 GMT -5
Hello Terry and Andy, the seals are indeed the same as the Ro80-ones. Suzuki just copied half of the Ro80-engine :-) So using ceramic (or Ro80-ferrotic)seals could be a good solution. I will send some pictures to your emailadress! Guido: yes, indeed, I knew that the Ro80-club have recently tested ceramic seals in a Ro80-engine. But I did not know they where already available (for sale) to members....nice! Have a nice day, Michel
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Post by Jess on Jan 30, 2017 13:50:32 GMT -5
Maybe someone can work out a group buy.
I have interest in being included if someone can put it together.
Best,
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