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Post by andrewwaller on Jun 24, 2012 7:41:18 GMT -5
Hi All, I have bought a 1974 model, 2 years ago actually and have now found time to start working on the bike. Every thing seems to work, lights etc, but I have encountered 2 problems. I noticed the bike was in 5 th gear and tried to change down to neutral but It will only go in between 4th and 5th or just 5th. There is no sign of damage to the bike so I can not understand how it is stuck in 5th, bent selectors would seem to be the obvious but why in 5th? The other problem is that the engine kicks over nicely, all be it a little tight, when in gear the engine turns over nicely if I turn the back wheel or kick start. The problem is that the starter will work but will not turn the engine over - short of a complete strip down I do not know what to do, can any one help please. The bike has only done 11,000 miles.
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Post by mike500 on Jun 24, 2012 9:43:37 GMT -5
usual problem if the starter is just spinning and not turning the engine is the starter sprag clutch not gripping sometimes its just due to standing for so long and to thick an oil
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Post by snowrench on Jun 24, 2012 12:07:09 GMT -5
Starter sprags seem to be a constant source of trouble on these things, that said I wouldn't expect it to work very well until you get that bike in neutral anyway, as you are adding extra drag to an already finicky starter.
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Jun 24, 2012 21:28:36 GMT -5
Starter sprags seem to be a constant source of trouble on these things, that said I wouldn't expect it to work very well until you get that bike in neutral anyway, as you are adding extra drag to an already finicky starter. The M models were notorious for starter clutch failures. The A models seemed to hold up much better. I was riding our demo (an M) in 76 when I went into the jewellery store to buy an engagement ring with my first wife. I came out and the starter wouldn't engage. I had to kick start it for the rest of that day. On the way home that night I almost hit a sheep as well. Probably should have been a forewarning about wife number 1. ;D
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Post by snowrench on Jun 26, 2012 11:25:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the M vs. A distinction, because both of my A models show signs of having been M's originally, and undergoing the dealership conversion.
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Jun 26, 2012 23:21:17 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure of the distinction myself. I guess it would be more accurate to say the lower the engine number, the more likely you are to have the starter clutch failure.
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Post by redbug2 on Jun 27, 2012 6:07:12 GMT -5
As far as 5th gear, I would start by taking the right side cover off, remove the clutch, and take a look at the shifting mechanism. See what its trying to do, the error might be apparent. Maybe one of the shifting paul springs is busted? I think you can get to it behind the clutch. If its not the mechanism and the drum won't turn then you probably need to take the transmission out. Engine must come out to do that. Transmission will unbolt without taking the rotor apart. Why did it happen? Somebody probably jammed the shifter up thinking there was another gear? Just fixed my brother's A where a tooth came off of second.... Probably jammed it up into second and busted the tooth.... Has it been sitting? What did the previous owner say? Was it shifting when it was put away? (Probably not if its stuck in 5th) If it was shifting when stored and somebody clicked it up into 5th while sitting maybe the shifting drum oxidized to the drum and one of the forks is stuck fast? Or maybe one of the forks is actually busted....
I fixed a Suzuki 250 hustler for my brother-in-law. Nice bike, stuck in 3rd. Previous owner had let somebody test ride it and the transmission came back busted. (After that story nobody is test riding my bikes, I'll ride them up and down the street, or show them a video, but they are not thrash testing a classic transmission). Split the casing, shifting fork had one side busted off. Test driver must have stood on the shifter to get that to happen....
As far as the starter, I would not expect much from it while it's stuck in fifth gear. You're trying to get the starter to turn the rotor and the transmission. 5th gear is the hardest for the engine to turn, and in your case the starter is doing it all. If you pull in the clutch it should be easier, but, the bike is not warm, if clutch is free, it has plenty of oil friction when cold. Turning the rotor over in neutral is hard enough for the starter. I would hold off on the starter diagnosis until after you solve the transmission issue. Well, you could try taking the chain off and give it a go. There would be no additional load on the starter then. The starter is very easy to remove. How good is your battery?
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Post by jm0406 on Jun 27, 2012 10:04:37 GMT -5
What is the cure for starter sprag problems? I have not encountered one, but would be good to know. Jeff
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didge
2nd Gear
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Post by didge on Jun 27, 2012 15:11:58 GMT -5
I had this problem real bad with mine and tried lots of different oils in the tranny till I ended up with automatic transmision fluid in there and it solved it.
It will now start even in very cold conditions, (I went out on it very early AM on new years day and it started lovely.)
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Jun 28, 2012 8:02:01 GMT -5
I'd be interested to hear how your clutch works with the ATF. It isn't really designed for a manual tranny. You might try something like Belray light viscosity gear oil. Really, though, if you run a 10w40 with a JASO MA rating it should work.
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Post by snowrench on Jun 28, 2012 11:13:52 GMT -5
I've been running Harley Sportster Tranny oil in mine, and it seems to work OK. The sprag kicks out occaisionally. Sporty fluid runs both in the tranny gears, and the clutch/chaincase. I would prefer to run 80/90 hypoid, but I never trust that stuff on clutch plates.
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Post by bdalameda on Jun 28, 2012 11:43:40 GMT -5
I run Redline Lightweight Shockproof gear oil in all my motorcycle transmissions. When I first got my latest RE5 the starter clutch would slip regularly, after changing to the Redline oil it no longer slips and this type of lubricant really protects the transmission as compared to motor oil. Shifts very smoothly as well. I do not feel the ATF or motor oil is the best choice for a motorcycle gearbox. Just my .02.
Dan
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didge
2nd Gear
Posts: 158
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Post by didge on Jun 28, 2012 17:22:28 GMT -5
I'd be interested to hear how your clutch works with the ATF. It isn't really designed for a manual tranny. You might try something like Belray light viscosity gear oil. Really, though, if you run a 10w40 with a JASO MA rating it should work. The clutch works and feels fine, i tried 10w40 which worked a couple of times but then reverted to the same problem, in the end I spoke to my local bike shop, the boss used to work on RE5's through a suzuki dealer back in the seventies, and at his suggestion I tried wet clutch ATF, it worked, my bike would start every single time without fail. That was about 2 years ago and I use my RE through all weathers clocking up several hundred miles at a time, it works for me. ;-) (My last trip was around 300 miles, the one before nearer 400)
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Post by bdalameda on Jun 28, 2012 18:09:17 GMT -5
I too worked at a Suzuki dealership back in the 70's and was factory trained by Suzuki on the RE5. we had quite an interesting mix of bikes sold out of that dealership. Suzuki, Montesa, Hodaka. Many used ATF in their transmissions - ATF in my experience will work but it does not offer the protection for the gear dogs as they mesh. On the RE5's the first to second gear transition can be pretty rough and that is why I think there are better options than ATF or regular motor oil. I have seen far more transmission problems running ATF than running a lubricant formulated as a gear lubricant. Most gear oil formulations are high in zinc and this really acts to protect metal surfaces like gear teeth or gear dogs. ATF does not have zinc as an additive and the newer engine oils have less zinc due to the fact that catalytic converters don't like zinc. Again - ATF works - I just don't think it is the best choice. My original RE5 I bought in 1975 had 86K mikes on it when I sold it and the gearbox and primary chain were like new. I had to remove the clutch case to replace a water pump seal and was able to take a good look around inside.
Dan
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gerryggg
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Post by gerryggg on Jun 29, 2012 5:47:47 GMT -5
I've never seen the actual spec, but if I was a betting man, I'd bet that oil that gets the JASO MA rating has more zinc than regular oils. I suspect the zinc increases the shear strength of the oil. BTW, the "MA" stands for "Motorcycle Application."
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